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wow... I'm surprised by an interview with Sherwin. He called Agnes a Jewish Mom. In the sense that, as he put it, a jewish mom lives for her son. And that she loved Karen in her own way but lived for Richard. geez

Also saw an interview with Levenkron (her therapist). He said that Karen did not die from Anorexia but rather from the drugs she took. She was abusing Qualuudes (sp?), the laxatives, ipecac, and the thyroid meds that she was taking 10 times the normal dose. Levenkron showed the bottle Karen gave to him. He said that the Carpenters were very much into taking drugs. That they were a family of alot of anxiety. Like the movie showed... Agnes introduced Richard to the sleeping pills. He also said that he had NEVER treated an anorexic where the family didnt call on a regular basis out of worry and concern. He said the Carpenter family never called.. not even once. They didnt believe in therapy... but did believe in medication use?

Anyway.... those are a couple things I've picked up while I'm watching them. I'll post if anymore come up. But those were some interesting points.

Pamela

Paul Williams looks so damn sad talking about Karen. Makes me want to cry. He said she really needed to be told she was loved. Everyone needs to be told that. And that he tells his children he loves them everytime he sees them and tells them how beautiful they are so they dont grow up trying to improve themselves to death. He mentions that Karen didnt think she was pretty enough and said she was beautiful.

The whole he looked like he would break into tears.

I'm not sure where these interviews are coming from. But they are interesting.

Pamela

LeadSister, on Jul 31 2005, 11:07 PM, said:

That I can quite believe. Both Richard and Steven Levenkron believed that by the time Karen reached New York for therapy, the damage had already been done.

Where are these fascinating interviews from Pamela?

Stephen

Marie let me borrow a bunch of vhs' and there are random things on them. Including interviews where I have no idea where they are from. Just bits and pieces here there.

Pamela

Too bad you can't put them on the forum!

Cheryl

I know I could...but I'd have to transport them to my camcorder and then to my computer. Not sure if I have the software on this computer or not and it would take me a long time to figure out how to do all that again. I just dont have the time right now to do that. Been cleaning like mad today and I'm exhausted.

Pamela

I just met this woman a couple of weeks ago. My client works for her. She sang with Karen at long beach state. She knew Karen and Richard and told me some new neat things about her impressions of Karen and Richard. She promised me she would email me a chronicle of her time with Karen. She was surprised there was a contingent of folks that still followed the Carpenters.

Her name is Dianna Morgan. She told me about some details of Karen that I am sure none of you have ever heard.

So, I will wait for her to send it to me so I can post it. Just a little preview: Karen loved to wear this green corduroy jacket. It had a flannel collar. It had two big pockets on the front and had a waist band, as the style dictated. It was around 1966 or 67. Karen loved it and wore it all the time.

phlipper, on Jul 31 2005, 07:13 PM, said:

WOW that's incredible... looking forward to it!


Pam, I understand what Dr Levenkron was saying about how Karen didn't die from anorexia... technically it was the drugs that she took.... but in my humble opinion, that is part and parcel of anorexia. A person who is pounding back laxatives and thyroid meds for the purpose of losing weight is behaving like an anorexic... and therefore it's the anorexia that did take her life... the anorexia made her take the pills in the first place. But yes, it's a question of semantics.

Karen must have felt incredibly guilty... like a failure... for 'needing therapy' if that's how her family viewed it. And that, quite frankly, breaks my heart. At 32 years old, she tried to better herself but her family didn't support that?! Sad.


Linda

linda76, on Jul 31 2005, 07:53 PM, said:

That's so true, Linda. When I first read that about the interview I thought for a second, "wow, Karen didn't die from anorexia - maybe she didn't evne have anorexia!" Of course, that was just me being delusional, as you are totally right. And even if physically it hadn't killed her, it was the anorexia that provided the mental torture for years.

I get confused with Dr.Levenkron...on one hand Karen seemed to really like him and he's been in this field for years, and a lot of what he says makes sense. But he seems way too optimistic in interviews, I think he even said once people can recover and "it's like they never had it." And unless they develop amnesia, I'm not confident that could ever happen - he just seems a little too.."well, if they come into therapy they'll be just fine" and that's not true. And then his BLGITW book...why is it so triggering? He confuses me sometimes, with the things he says.

And to say Karen didn't die from anorexia, when that's just matter of semantics, is kind of dangerous. It's a good way for anorexics to believe "well, as long as I don't take ipecac, I'll be okay", which unfortunately isn't true. But I've heard people saying that - like ipecac is the "killer", not anorexia.

It would make more sense to me if Dr. Levenkron had recanted his book "The Best Little Girl in the World". I'm with you, Annie... I find that, for a therapist, he is actually triggering. Go figure.

Linda-kron

linda76, on Jul 31 2005, 08:48 PM, said:

I think we should write a book together, Lindakron We can call it "The Strangest Little Hard-to-get Therapist in the World" .




Thanks Pam, for the info...the interviews sound really fascinating.

Yeah, it was strange how he said it wasnt the Anorexia because it's the anorexic behaviors that killed her. But he also agreed in another interview that the weightgain sped things up for her. (not in those words but that was the idea). He had denied that in another interview and said that Richard was doing a disservice to those trying to recover by saying gaining weight is dangerous. I guess over time, he's ideas change.

uhg... I had another thought on this but Erica is yelling for me now. lol

Pamela

Very interesting stuff here so I will add some things here.

First Philipper the reference to the green corduroy jacket is interesting I never knew it was Karens favotite but I remember an interview with Hal Blaine where he recalled his first meeting with Richard and Karen in 1968 or 1969 I do not think they had a contract at the time and Hal was meeting with them at joe osbornes request to perhaps produce them it was here Hal mentioned that Karen was wearing a green corduroy jacket so it fits what you were saying philipper neat how ifo seems to overlap here.

Pamela your article mentioning the cause of Karens death is interesting. The theory that ipecac was a cause of Karens death is a debated subject in fact I believe that ipecac played a role in Karens death (sorry Annie) because she was taking it in high doses at the time the autorities found large number of bottles of ipecac at the house when Karen was found and this drug is known to put strain on a healthy heart let alone on in a weakened state like Karens heart was it had to play a role as she died of a massive heart attack. Of course the effects of Karens ED were the chief cause of her death as her weakened heart was the result of the ED and ipecac just put too much strain on an already weak heart. This is just my belief on factors that contributed to Karens death I don't think anyone will ever know for sure what caused Karens death or all the factors involved.

Another thing that I saw in one of the documentaries is that Karen apparently had a few minor heart attacks before her massive one in the months before her death.
She apparently mentioned to friend that she had chest pains but dismissed them as nothing in typical Karen fashion. Karen was known to not trust doctors so if she was having any health problems before her death she would not have saught medical attention so this revelation seems to have some logic to it.

Its also interesting but not surprising that Karens family never called during her therapy Richard admitted in several interviews that he never believed in therapy for curing eating disorders. He said it was suggested to him earlier to place Karen in therapy but he did not believe in it so never suggested Karen go to therapy and I don't doubt Agnes felt the same.

Just some info to share.

enigma, on Aug 1 2005, 07:18 AM, said:

Don't apologize to me, lol...if she did take ipecac then it makes sense that it contributed to her heart attack, but like Linda was saying, that doesn't mean she didn't die from anorexia, because that's what made her take the ipecac in the first place. It's kind of like someone with diabetes will often die of pneumonia/heart failure/prolonged intake of insulin, but that doesn't mean diabetes isn't the culprit.

polarbear, on Aug 1 2005, 07:41 AM, said:

Annie

I do think Karens ED was the major contributor to Karens death I mean the weakened heart was the result of malnutrition cause Karen ate very little for so many years so any medication that would strain the heart would be deadly to someone with a weak heart. I agree with your assessment that we may be sending a dangerous message if we start dismissing Karens death as being caused by AN it is a deadly disease no doubt about it. Though I believe ipecac was a contributor Karen probably would have lived had she not had a weakened heart due to AN so in the end AN was the main reason Karen is not with us. You and linda are correct it all stems from AN so directly or indirectly it caused Karens death good point Annie (and Linda).