Would You Change The Past?
julster86
11 Mar 2005
I've often thought about that....there's so much involved in it, it's such a loaded question. 
I'd love to say yes, but if so.....how much would change? Someone else would have had to have died of an eating disorder before it got attention and was taken seriously...who would it have been instead? How many people would have died? 
What if someone really important's mother had suffered from it and as a result, they had never been born? Soooo many things would change. Would we be here in this forum, even? I would loooove to say yes....but would that be a wise thing to do at all?
I'd love to say yes, but if so.....how much would change? Someone else would have had to have died of an eating disorder before it got attention and was taken seriously...who would it have been instead? How many people would have died? What if someone really important's mother had suffered from it and as a result, they had never been born? Soooo many things would change. Would we be here in this forum, even? I would loooove to say yes....but would that be a wise thing to do at all?
dfb
11 Mar 2005
I don't think there is any question any of us here would gladly have Karen still be alive, considering the tragic circumstances at such a young age. It's intriguing to think how history would have changed had Karen lived. She'd be 55 now and although her and Richard's heyday would probably be well in the past I'm sure they would still be much in the public eye. By the way RR, welcome to the club.
dvb
12 Mar 2005
I think Julianne pretty much sums it up for me. I believe things happen for a reason and if she was still here, who knows what kind of effect or damage it would have had on her and others you know? It was just her time.
Pimmetje
12 Mar 2005
dvb, on Mar 12 2005, 07:13 AM, said:
I think Julianne pretty much sums it up for me. I believe things happen for a reason and if she was still here, who knows what kind of effect or damage it would have had on her and others you know? It was just her time.
Hmmm
No, I have to disagree on both of you. I used to think just like you, to think that things were ment to happen. Wasted lots of time with the "why me" question.... 
But as time goes by I don't think that the stuff around us happens as it were ment to be. And that somebody on a cloud is controlling things here on earth.
my guess is that everything what's going on here, happens completely at random.
You just can't say for example, to somebody who stepped on a landmine lose both of his legs, that was ment to be...no it's just a case of very bad luck and at wrong place at the wrong time.
*Wilson*
12 Mar 2005
I've often thought about this,especially in relation to all of Richard's kids,would he have still got married to Mary & had all those children if Karen hadn't died?BUT I do wish Karen hadn't died because she was such an amazing & talented person,if someone came to me & said if I gave up my life Karen could come back I would do it because she has way more to give the world than me & deserves to be here much more I guess she lives on through us fans though because we all continue to talk about her,listen to her & imagine how her life would've been 
In regards to anorexia I think it's sad that 22 years on even more people suffer from it & treatment isn't really that much better,too many people still die or live with the disease.Karen had said that she wanted to do something to help other sufferers & I think if she'd lived she would've done a LOT to help those with eating disorders.So I wish Karen hadn't died,no matter what then happened...to me some things aren't "meant to be" Rachel
favorite.songs
12 Mar 2005
I also believe that most everything happens for a greater reason than we sometimes know, but I'd still love Karen to be here with us if I had the choice. She was taken so early. It's just so sad to think about, and we all miss her so very much.
For those of us who have been fans of hers for many years, you can't help but wish that there would have been more years for her to share her talents. She's been gone far too long.
Her death was probably unavoidable though, and because she was taken so soon, it makes her legacy all the more rich and rare. She truly was like a flower that did not last very long. A gorgeous sunset that fades so quickly.
No doubt her death has had effects on so many in countless ways.
Chris
For those of us who have been fans of hers for many years, you can't help but wish that there would have been more years for her to share her talents. She's been gone far too long.
Her death was probably unavoidable though, and because she was taken so soon, it makes her legacy all the more rich and rare. She truly was like a flower that did not last very long. A gorgeous sunset that fades so quickly.
No doubt her death has had effects on so many in countless ways.
Chris
Paul Johnson
12 Mar 2005
Rachel. don't say such a thing honey. Karen was a remarkable human being but then so are you. We are all remarkable and no one person is better or more important than another. Remember that honey. 
Your life is equally as special and important as Karen's. It may not seem like this as our lives look pretty ordinary in comparison with Karen's but we are all very special.
I have to agree with Julianne. If Karen had not have died things would not be like they are now. People wouldn't have been born, they may have died and we may not even have become fans. I know part of their appeal to me is how Karen's tragic story makes their music more mysterious and sad. That wouldn't be the case if she were still here. Yes, there is bad luck and I believe we control our own destinies to a certain extent but I do believe that it was Karen's time to depart. She was a special flower who was only meant to bloom for a short time.
However, I do wish that she had lived just a bit longer. Maybe just a few months so that she and Richard could have finished that album they were planning to do and she could have at least reached her 33rd birthday. But as I've said it was her time.
Listen to this. I knew a person who was heading down the road of anorexia and only saw some sense after watching The Karen Carpenter Story on TV. Just a thought.
Your life is equally as special and important as Karen's. It may not seem like this as our lives look pretty ordinary in comparison with Karen's but we are all very special. I have to agree with Julianne. If Karen had not have died things would not be like they are now. People wouldn't have been born, they may have died and we may not even have become fans. I know part of their appeal to me is how Karen's tragic story makes their music more mysterious and sad. That wouldn't be the case if she were still here. Yes, there is bad luck and I believe we control our own destinies to a certain extent but I do believe that it was Karen's time to depart. She was a special flower who was only meant to bloom for a short time.
However, I do wish that she had lived just a bit longer. Maybe just a few months so that she and Richard could have finished that album they were planning to do and she could have at least reached her 33rd birthday. But as I've said it was her time.
Listen to this. I knew a person who was heading down the road of anorexia and only saw some sense after watching The Karen Carpenter Story on TV. Just a thought.
Mikey
12 Mar 2005
I agree withg most of the people here. I would love to have her back, or have followed my dream of meeting her in the eighties, but many things that I love now may not have existed, not to mention all the thousands of ED sufferers who's lives have been saved by the awareness Karen's death generated.
I would love to have her back, or have followed my dream of meeting her in the eighties, but many things that I love now may not have existed, not to mention all the thousands of ED sufferers who's lives have been saved by the awareness Karen's death generated.
*Wilson*
12 Mar 2005
Thankyou Paul,I just wish I could be special like Karen,I've always wanted to bring her back & when I was young & heard what had happened to her I wanted to give her my healthy heart I'm not sure why I have these strange thoughts but you're so kind to make me feel like a special person too I guess I should use my existance to do something worthwhile so people will remember me too!You're the best 
Love Rachel
polarbear
12 Mar 2005
Wow...what a topic here. To me, there are a couple of important points to remember. First, yes we're all fans and we all like Karen lots and wish she hadn't died. However, I don't actually believe that Karen's life mattered any more than anyone else's, and I don't think she was a magical being that existed to make this world a better place - unless you go on the premise that EVERYONE is magical in their own way and make the world a better place. Now, I do know that when someone dies young, it's only natural to say that they were magical and other-wordly, and I agree with doing that, because it is so tragic and we have to comfort ourselves in an attempt to understand this crazy world. But I think we have to keep in mind that this romanticization of Karen is just that, and there is absolutely no reason to bring her back any more than anyone else. She was an amazing talent, but is that why she shouldn't have died? Shouldn't she have lived because she was a good person who should have had a long life whether or not she could sing, and because people aren't supposed to die in their 30s?
I mean, if we're going to bring back anorexics I would bring back someone who didn't even make it to the prom, who never could eat their candy when they went trick or treating....it's awful that Karen died, but at least she got a chance to live...and she did live.
Rachel, what you said kind of disturbed me...why on earth would you think Karen had more to give to the world than you? Because she could sing? In the large scheme of things...does it matter? I think your parents would disagree with you, and I don't even know you and I disagree with you. I think it's troubling that someone as young and intelligent as you would say that you would give up your life for someone else - someone who was probably just like you, as strong as you and also as insecure as you. I can't imagine when that kind of scenario, wanting to give up your life for someone would ever make sense, unless you're a parent who's lost a child and wish they could have survived instead of you.
Another thing I don't know about is the idea that Karen saved millions of lives. I know we say that a lot, but rationally I don't think it's that true. Yes, her death brought awareness, but that doesn't mean she saved anyone - she didn't really do anything - then again, I don't think there was much she could have done, and she certainly didn't have the responsibility to save anyone. She was just a girl with her own problems. And sure, she tried to help others, approaching the other girls in Dr.Levenkron's office and telling them they should eat...but it is hollow advice coming from another anorexic...it's often hollow advice anyway. I also think awareness is a tricky issue - it's good that people talk about it more now, but a lot of awareness in the media and such is bad awareness ("hollywood causes anorexia"), or false awareness ("you shouldn't throw up or use laxatives, but maintaining an exploitative billion dollar diet industry which relies on people's low self-esteem is okay").
Anorexia doesn't care if you can sing, if you play drums - or if you're a Carpenters fan. And I know a lot of girls during that time finally sought treatment because they were frightened by Karen's death (some of them are even on this forum today), but...whether or not someone recovers has everything to do with that person, and nothing to do with Karen, ultimately. I mean, people develop anorexia for a whole bunch of reasons, and these risk factors are key, as they were with Karen. If someone has the support and the ability to recover, and their body withstands the effects, they'll live...and if they don't, they might not live. It really has nothing to do with Karen.
Here on this forum, Karen and anorexia are very much intertwined....but leave this forum and go search anorexia/bulimia or EDNOS on the internet. Go to an eating disorders forum, and read people's diaries...you'll hear many things about the illness, and about people's lives, and it becomes much more obvious that Karen was just a victim of this thing, not the saviour of anorexics. If she had written an online journal it would probably look a lot like everyone else's.
If the awareness of Karen made everything better, then nobody on this forum would be anorexic, which is far from the case. And rates of anorexia have gone nowhere but up since Karen's death, and the age of onset has gone down...so now we have ten year olds that don't eat, not just 24 year olds. And I know that a lot of recovering anorexics here say they feel inspired to recover because of Karen, and I understand that and that's great, but has anyone here really recovered just because they thought of Karen? I'd be surprised to hear that...and I think that if you were able to better recover thinking of Karen, it's because you were at the point where you were kind of ready to try recovery to begin with. Because if you weren't...Karen's story wouldn't really affect you all that much. Karen can't fix anything, because she didn't cause anything. And I like to believe she saved lives, too...but I can't rationally believe it.
I mean, if we're going to bring back anorexics I would bring back someone who didn't even make it to the prom, who never could eat their candy when they went trick or treating....it's awful that Karen died, but at least she got a chance to live...and she did live.
Rachel, what you said kind of disturbed me...why on earth would you think Karen had more to give to the world than you? Because she could sing? In the large scheme of things...does it matter? I think your parents would disagree with you, and I don't even know you and I disagree with you. I think it's troubling that someone as young and intelligent as you would say that you would give up your life for someone else - someone who was probably just like you, as strong as you and also as insecure as you. I can't imagine when that kind of scenario, wanting to give up your life for someone would ever make sense, unless you're a parent who's lost a child and wish they could have survived instead of you.
Another thing I don't know about is the idea that Karen saved millions of lives. I know we say that a lot, but rationally I don't think it's that true. Yes, her death brought awareness, but that doesn't mean she saved anyone - she didn't really do anything - then again, I don't think there was much she could have done, and she certainly didn't have the responsibility to save anyone. She was just a girl with her own problems. And sure, she tried to help others, approaching the other girls in Dr.Levenkron's office and telling them they should eat...but it is hollow advice coming from another anorexic...it's often hollow advice anyway. I also think awareness is a tricky issue - it's good that people talk about it more now, but a lot of awareness in the media and such is bad awareness ("hollywood causes anorexia"), or false awareness ("you shouldn't throw up or use laxatives, but maintaining an exploitative billion dollar diet industry which relies on people's low self-esteem is okay").
Anorexia doesn't care if you can sing, if you play drums - or if you're a Carpenters fan. And I know a lot of girls during that time finally sought treatment because they were frightened by Karen's death (some of them are even on this forum today), but...whether or not someone recovers has everything to do with that person, and nothing to do with Karen, ultimately. I mean, people develop anorexia for a whole bunch of reasons, and these risk factors are key, as they were with Karen. If someone has the support and the ability to recover, and their body withstands the effects, they'll live...and if they don't, they might not live. It really has nothing to do with Karen.
Here on this forum, Karen and anorexia are very much intertwined....but leave this forum and go search anorexia/bulimia or EDNOS on the internet. Go to an eating disorders forum, and read people's diaries...you'll hear many things about the illness, and about people's lives, and it becomes much more obvious that Karen was just a victim of this thing, not the saviour of anorexics. If she had written an online journal it would probably look a lot like everyone else's.
If the awareness of Karen made everything better, then nobody on this forum would be anorexic, which is far from the case. And rates of anorexia have gone nowhere but up since Karen's death, and the age of onset has gone down...so now we have ten year olds that don't eat, not just 24 year olds. And I know that a lot of recovering anorexics here say they feel inspired to recover because of Karen, and I understand that and that's great, but has anyone here really recovered just because they thought of Karen? I'd be surprised to hear that...and I think that if you were able to better recover thinking of Karen, it's because you were at the point where you were kind of ready to try recovery to begin with. Because if you weren't...Karen's story wouldn't really affect you all that much. Karen can't fix anything, because she didn't cause anything. And I like to believe she saved lives, too...but I can't rationally believe it.
enigma
12 Mar 2005
This will sound corny but I have seen many sci fi programs mainly Star Trek that deal with the effects of messing with the past whether it be Karen or anybody else everyone must die when their time comes and to interfere with that can have a ripple effect that could do more damage to history as we know it than we could ever imagine. Every event/death happens for a reason and shapes life as we know it today any alteration no matter how seemingly insignificant will greatly chane life as we know it now. In this case as Carpenters fans the change would be major and not necessarily for the better.
Yes Rachel you are every bit as valuable as Karen do not ever think you are inferior to anyone we are all equal and special in our own way yourself included. Its OK to love Karen but never feel inferior to her or anyone else.
Yes Rachel you are every bit as valuable as Karen do not ever think you are inferior to anyone we are all equal and special in our own way yourself included. Its OK to love Karen but never feel inferior to her or anyone else.
*Wilson*
12 Mar 2005
I'm sorry that what I said disturbed you but I can't help the way that I feel!I think Karen had a special gift,whether she had had anorexia or not,or if she hadn't died so young her voice would still have touched the lives of people like me I know if she'd lived that she & Rich would've made even more great music You don't know me so I can't expect you to understand the way I think & feel.I lost my dad very suddenly last august & I would give anything to hug him & speak to him again so I would gladly take Karen's place I can't help how I feel about myself but I don't love & respect Karen because she was anorexic or because she died,I love her because she was a nice person who made great music If I can touch people in the way she has maybe I'll feel like a worthwhile person,maybe not I'm just a person with a lot of flaws who finds it hard to love herself,I can't help that & I hope you don't think I'm a bad person because of it
polarbear
12 Mar 2005
downeydrummer, on Mar 12 2005, 08:44 AM, said:
I'm sorry that what I said disturbed you but I can't help the way that I feel!I think Karen had a special gift,whether she had had anorexia or not,or if she hadn't died so young her voice would still have touched the lives of people like me I know if she'd lived that she & Rich would've made even more great music You don't know me so I can't expect you to understand the way I think & feel.I lost my dad very suddenly last august & I would give anything to hug him & speak to him again so I would gladly take Karen's place I can't help how I feel about myself but I don't love & respect Karen because she was anorexic or because she died,I love her because she was a nice person who made great music If I can touch people in the way she has maybe I'll feel like a worthwhile person,maybe not I'm just a person with a lot of flaws who finds it hard to love herself,I can't help that & I hope you don't think I'm a bad person because of it Rachel, dear, of course I don't think you're a bad person, much on the contrary...I just think your lack of self-esteem is a serious issue. You're a nice person, too, and deserve to live just as much as Karen did. I'm really sorry about your dad, that really stinks...and you're right, I don't know you. You have a special gift too even if you don't quite know what it is yet, or even if you can't see it...after all, Karen didn't believe she was that great either. I guess all I'm saying is that it's not that different, we're not so different...Karen included.
mculjak
12 Mar 2005
All excellent and interesting points from everyone.
My own thoughts - I admit I was saddened and affected by her death (sometimes still am) and miss her greatly, selfishly I sometimes wish she were still around to give me more of what I love which of course is her voice and music, but that is really only thinking of myself.
But there is also a huge part of me that is a firm believer in the idea that there really is no such thing as death because I do not think we cease to exist... there is so much we don't understand or know about this mysterious transition we call death but I believe our journey continues and that we continue to experience life and love and learning.
So in a way, to me all that has happened is that Karen has gone somewhere else for awhile and I miss here like I would miss a friend who has moved away and hasn't been able to keep in touch. And there is nothing to bring her back from... we only have to move forward and perhaps, as our journey continues, her path and mine (yours, ours) may cross again.
The story is not over, the ending hasn't been written, and for now, it is enough for me that as long as I keep her in my mind and heart, she IS still with me.
Marie
My own thoughts - I admit I was saddened and affected by her death (sometimes still am) and miss her greatly, selfishly I sometimes wish she were still around to give me more of what I love which of course is her voice and music, but that is really only thinking of myself.
But there is also a huge part of me that is a firm believer in the idea that there really is no such thing as death because I do not think we cease to exist... there is so much we don't understand or know about this mysterious transition we call death but I believe our journey continues and that we continue to experience life and love and learning.
So in a way, to me all that has happened is that Karen has gone somewhere else for awhile and I miss here like I would miss a friend who has moved away and hasn't been able to keep in touch. And there is nothing to bring her back from... we only have to move forward and perhaps, as our journey continues, her path and mine (yours, ours) may cross again.
The story is not over, the ending hasn't been written, and for now, it is enough for me that as long as I keep her in my mind and heart, she IS still with me.
Marie
